Gender roles continue

[secondlina]

In the Oz books, at some point, Ozma's emerald city is attacked by an army of girls lead by their fearless leader, the powerful Jinjur, also a girl. Oz is all about women in power facing other women in power.

The reality is still not at that point. Continuing on the idea I wrote last time that men seemed more freed by gender role changes then women, I saw an article today with this in it:
 

It's a 1938 disney rejection letter saying that :

"Women do not do any of the creative work in connection with preparing the cartoons for the screen, as that work is performed entirely by young men. For this reason girls are not considered for the training school. 
The only work open to women consists of tracing the characters on clear celluloid sheets with India ink and filling in the tracings on the reverse side with paint according to the directions."

Wow, good thing today is different! Well, according to an article about this letter, In Ratatouille, among the 26 head animators there is no women. Now you wonder, is it because women are not interested in animation, or because those who are perform less well then men or simply because those who are interest get disapointed by the boys club that seem to be living in animation studios. I remember visiting Funbag animation when I was 17, in the context of an internship. The guy that had brought me into Funbag told me later "Wow, their boss told me you distracted them a lot and a lot of employees complained they could not work."

Could not work because of an (underage to boot!) one-day-only female coworker? Sheesh.

I guess I understand that, if woman are rare in the animation world, it's normal that they may be distracting, but that made me feel like a zoo animal. So I really wonder about the animation world, and the comic book world and the commercial art world in general, who's greater members (sic) are still men. This brings us back to Linda Nochlin's text "why is there no great woman artist?" who says that their is no woman artists (at least back in the 1970s) because most of the art world did not always reject openly women, but rather made it difficult for them and opened easier "girlier" jobs for them instead. Boy, that reminds me of the whole disney inker versus animator right?

I know the world today is a lot less like that, and that one of the reasons women aren't in animation is because of a lack of interest. But that lack of interest is caused by something, and it might not be the competitive atmosphere or the horrible hours because women choose jobs that have those too. Maybe it's because there has always been so little woman that woman are discouraged. When your class teacher must warn the class to leave women alone or your internship boss tells your mentor you're distracting his employees... Is that really all that encouraging?

Yeah, this text is feminist and borderline sexist towards men. Too bad. I'm feeling female fury today.

-Secondlina
  
EDIT: Check out http://ichiban-victory.livejournal.com/447109.html?view=3085957#t3085957
Ichiban Victory does an awesome little post that sheds a bit of light on the stuff said in this one. It complements my super feminist rant with a more moderate point of view! Plz read :)
(I love her post!)

Comments

[fenmere.livejournal.com]

I don't see anything borderline sexist against men in that post. You're covering history and enumerating where things still need to be fixed. We need to keep doing that.

Just as long as we all keep listening to each other, and open doors for each other, we'll keep making progress.

If you are not following the career of ginasketch, you might want to. She's trying to break into the world of animation in the UK. So far, her problems mostly seem to be those of the beginner. But her work is really good.

[secondlina.livejournal.com]

Wow, she sounds really interesting! I think I may friend her (if she doesn't mind of course)

[fenmere.livejournal.com]

She probably wouldn't mind. Although her journal has been more personal lately, she's been locking those posts. Also, I think she'd be interested in your last couple of posts, so I'll point her your way, too.

[ginasketch.livejournal.com]

There is still a "glass ceiling" in the industry but I very much doubt I personally have been a victim of it. It's been as you say, the fact that i'm a struggling beginner, and it certainly is not as bad as in the 30's.

I mentioned the glass ceiling because I picked up an animation magazine that was lying around while at Espresso and it listed wages for various roles. For some reason female animation directors got paid less than male ones.

[fenmere.livejournal.com]

Sadly, a story that's pretty much true in nearly any industry.

[secondlina.livejournal.com]

I think the glass ceiling exists most likely everywhere. It's just in some businesses, it's easier to hit it then others.

[paynesgrey.livejournal.com]

Wow, great entry here. As a woman, it is infuriating reading something like this.
Looks like the feminist movement is far from over.
Thanks for sharing. ^^

[secondlina.livejournal.com]

I don't think we are in the feminist movement anymore, but rather in the equalist movement. One way or another, things aren't perfect yet.

Don't forget to read the Linda Nochlin text! I know for a fact you'll love it! :)

[ichiban-victory.livejournal.com]

It's interesting you posted up that letter, because I recently got 101 Dalmatians and watched a special on the DVD that talked about new technology (the Xerox machine) essentially laying off most of the female inkers who had worked at the Walt Disney Company. They even interviewed one that said the women were all sad (upset, heartbroken, etc.) to be losing their jobs. If you look at some of the original animated sketched by those 'young men', many were very basic. The women did a lot of work to do cleanup before inking and painting the cels, so they were definitely artists in their own right as well.

I know women exist in the field today (some of the higher ups at Disney or even Pixar are in fact female), but they are still very few and far between the men. I'm still hoping to break into that world someday myself, so perhaps at some point I'll also have a peek into what goes on behind the scenes.

I don't know whether we can solely blame this on men when so many women seem put off by pursuing creative endeavors. I'm hoping we see a change in this, but sitting back and waiting isn't the way to do it.

(And if those men were distracted by you walking in, that's pretty sad. People from either gender need to learn to keep their stupid hormones in check. We have one guy in my sewing class, with at least fifteen girls, and he's pretty much just another one of the people who goes to class every day to finish a project. I've yet to see anyone get distracted by his presence, and he's on the cute side as well. *shrug*

[secondlina.livejournal.com]

*reads the part about 101 dalmatians*
*SWEARS HEAVILY*
Replaced by a Xerox. Unbelievable.

I see a lot of women being put off by creative endaveors, but i'm wondering what puts them off. As an example, Pia Gerra (illustrator for the comic Y the last man) could not find any contracts because she "drew like a girl" (which is not true at all! What is "drawing like a girl" anyways?!) I'm thinking the whole to interest in art/animation is caused by social rules and such. It's also caused a bit by the feminist movement. Women should get business jobs to be equal to men! However, women equality is still low in the art and needs changing!

[fenmere.livejournal.com]

I'd like to see a group of women put together their own kick-ass studio. It might even be more effective if it weren't an all women company, just started and dominated by female talent. I'd like to see what they'd do.

It wouldn't be a fix for the problems of other companies and the rest of the industry, but it might show them up.

A start to that is the Indy comic industry. Most of my favorite cartoonists are female. But for some reason, they aren't as prolific or persistent or well known as the men (except perhaps Dylan Meconis or Ursula Vernon), which might be the result of any number of social influences (even factors outside the industry, like housekeeping expectations). But here's my reading list:

beatonna http://www.katebeaton.com
verabee http://www.verabee.com
quirkybird http://thequirkybird.com/
erikamoen http://www.projectkooky.com/erika
mao http://www.jenwang.net
normallife no website
mcjulie http://www.gothhouse.org/
sharkcowsheep http://www.funkyhorror.com/WomWom.htm
jenni_the_odd http://jennitheodd.deviantart.com/
skellington1 http://bs.skellingtonart.com/
ursulav http://www.metalandmagic.com/
Alison Bechdel http://www.dykestowatchoutfor.com/
Tracy J. Butler http://lackadaisy.foxprints.com/
And, of course ginasketch as mentioned above.

There are so many more, of course, and any one of them of high enough quality to have their work animated (many of which I'd like to see animated – your own work included).

I'm not likely to go into animation myself, but if I were and did make it to a decision-making level, I'd tap that talent. I'd make it my goal.

[ichiban-victory.livejournal.com]

Actually, the whole history of animation at the Disney studio is worth reading up on, if you haven't done so already. Aside from technology killing off work for a lot of people (I would swear a lot more about computer animation nearly killing off traditional altogether - be the animator male or female!), it wasn't completely run by men. Walt Disney himself was very good to everyone that worked for him (aside from his famous temper, but the man knew what he wanted, and by golly he was going to get it), and the women seemed to think highly on him. I remember watching some special on just the cartoons, and it was made known that a female employee who had only ever done the cleanup and ink and paint finally got to do actual animation, and she did very well.

It's also important to remember that it was the 1930s, and the world was a far different place. It wasn't really until World War 2 shipped off most of our 'American boys' that women were appreciated for being able to labor, and in fact were encouraged to enter the work force. (Just check out propaganda posters like Rosie the Riveter.) Heck, even the fashion industry trends focused on this, women's apparel finally going more toward business apparel for the working woman.

(Guess who's been paying attention in class this semester? XP)

We still have a lot of barriers to break down, it's true, as well as knocking sense into those who think that the gender of a person determines their abilities, and what people will want. I do find it somewhat strange that in places like Japan, where women are still pretty much second-class citizens, that female artists are everywhere you look. I think we need to take a page from such societies, not in treating women as less than men, but in seeing women as equals when it comes to talents and the like.

[snapdragon76.livejournal.com]

That is really disappointing. Who says women can't succeed in the art world alongside men. Most of the great artists I know (you included) are women. I have several on my DeviantArt page in fact.

You think the art world would be more progressive about this sort of thing. It should be more about actual talent rather than gender.

[ichiban-victory.livejournal.com]

The artists need to get beyond places like DeviantArt though. Sure, putting your work online is a great way to gain exposure, but that doesn't mean you'll break out into the art world. I've actually been encouraging ameban (who also hosts a lot of her art there) to find work with her art, and it sounds like she's making progress to do just that.

We have the ability to fight our way to the top, but we have to be willing to do just what it takes. Just sitting online hoping to be discovered by some major company (or investor) isn't the way to do it.

[snapdragon76.livejournal.com]

Some of them do, that's just where I see them at.

[dqbunny.livejournal.com]

Animation, like journalism, seems very much like the "good old boys" club, where it started flourishing during a male-dominated era in the workforce and it never got a reality check. Look at Klasky-Csupo. That was a husband and wife team, and the wife was the one who was the driving force behind Rugrats, The Wild Thornberries and other really popular American animation in the mid to late 90s. It shows that women really can produce great things when it comes to animation.

I've know two people who are both animators - calger459 who is doing freelance and some other stuff, and Jac, who works for Dreamworks. Jac's story has been really interesting to follow, and you can find her blog here. You might like reading her stuff.

[fenmere.livejournal.com]

And like Animation, journalism is poised for some quick changes, too. And the key is in the upstarts. The market for the daily newspaper is rapidly shrinking. Weeklies are in a fantastic position to come to the forefront because the printed copy compliments a website better with a weekly, rather than competing with it.

I currently work for an independent weekly where the managing editor, Sheri, is a woman. And she's a damn good manager, too. And the office dynamic is really dynamite: laid back, positive and productive. We can't blame that all on her, since Deb, the receptionist, is also key to that atmosphere along with Peter, the publisher. But we all listen to Sheri and she makes the final decisions on what goes to print. Period. And she's a real pleasure to work for.

And together, we're beginning to really eat up the local daily.

There's hope there, I think.

[oolong.livejournal.com]

found this post through fenmere!
wow, that letter certainly is ridiculous. things have changed in the industry for sure, but that glass ceiling is definitely still around. i have a few friends who are animation students right now at Digipen, CalArts, Sheridan and SCAD, and from what I've gleaned from them it seems like there are as many or more competent female animation STUDENTS in their programs, so it will be interesting to see in 3-4 years after they have all graduated how the job market ends up being. it sucks that you got treated that way at Funbag, that's really inappropriate that the presence of a 17 year old girl apparently interests them so much that they can't get any work done.

*edit: SCAD, not ringling

[ginasketch.livejournal.com]

it sucks that you got treated that way at Funbag, that's really inappropriate that the presence of a 17 year old girl apparently interests them so much that they can't get any work done.

If anything it reflects how unprofessional THEY are.

[merc16.livejournal.com]

The animation industry is an incredibly difficult industry to get into now a days. The people who currently work at these major studios used to be computer scientists and such, they all came from more of a male dominated field. The entire field is male dominated at the moment, however, that is changing at a very rapid rate.

I work in the lightind department at DreamWorks and we have very few females here compared to some other departments. That's because lighting is mostly technical. There are just some fields of work more dominated by women than others. If you have any other questions on the subject, I'd be happy to answer them for you.

[secondlina.livejournal.com]

Congrats on working at dreamworks, and I like your blog BTW. :)

I'd like to see which fields exactly are dominated by women, it would be interesting! I know a few women animators in toronto, but i'm wondering how it's like at dreamworks.

[earthstar-moon.livejournal.com]

It's amazing how far women have come since the 1930s, however, there are also many industries that proves women still have to work hard at to get their foot in the door.

Now, I know you know more of the comic industry then I do, but when I compare the North American comics to the Japanese comics, finding female artists is a lot more common in manga. I can't help but think that because of this manga offers more varity, especially for girls, then a lot of North American comics and thus makes it more popular cause there are stories that appeal to both boys and girls. You would think this would be a hint to the western comic industry that lenting in more female comic artists would be a very good move to take.

[secondlina.livejournal.com]

I'm suprised in a way that japan would have more female artist because japan is much more male-based then us. I think there is simply more woman comic artist because there has always been a part of the manga world dedicated to women, while most of the american comic industry used to be dedicated to men (now it's 50-50, thank god)

However, if you check back at comics by the great Tekuza, you realise that yes, there was manga for women and women artist, but the rules were really strict. To have a female heroin that fought like a man, Tekuza had to cross-dress her and give her a man's heart! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Knight)
There was huge article about women in manga in Anime Land the other day. It was really interesting. It pointed a lot at how women used to have rules then prevented them to draw certain things. How mean!

[rowenathewitch.livejournal.com]

That's a thing that has always puzzed me.
Manga and Anime have a lot of positive female characters, even in shonen now , and there are a lot of female artists, yet the japanese society is awful to women.

On the contrary, american society is really good for women, much better than my country (sadly for me) yet america's comics are still victim of the Smurfette Principle (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSmurfettePrinciple). And most action movies are unwatchable, because the girl is either the damsel in distress or an uber-extra-special kickass girl that doesn't do anything important in the end.

I hope the trend will change. I think that all it takes is a couple of events that upset the balance.
For example, in 1995 Sailor Moon came out in Italy in national channels, and it wasn't only a great success. People started to realize that programs for girls actually make money (tons of money! They sold anything but Sailor Moon toilet paper XD) so a lot of people "copied" the idea.

Maybe if Anime was shown more in usa national television, it could help the cause a lot.

Women and Men...is an excellent song by They Might Be Giants!

[ichiban-victory.livejournal.com]

Yikes, you're supposed to say something (throw a rock, etc.) if you're going to link to my entry! ^_^; I had it locked, but I unlocked it so anyone curious can get my 'moderate' (really?) commentary on this.

Isa, be sure to check this video about the differences between men and women. It had me laughing a lot on how true it is. ^_-